November 2000.

"I have a great amount of respect for the word 'fusion,' but I can't do that: I think it's impossible to know two cultures well enough in a single lifetime."

THE INTELLIGENT GUITARIST

He is responsible for some of the best moments of "flamenco-sounding" music (El Último de la Fila, Albert Pla…), and the author of the intimate and sensitive recording "Noches de imán y luna." He has undertaken an exercise in virtuosity by transposing Albéniz piano sonatas to the guitar. Juan Manuel Cañizares now presents a recording for the general public.
He is the intelligent guitarist. Speaking in flamenco, he shows his stuff in just a fourth of this recording. An extraordinary alegrías, a rondeña with Morente, and a tango-rumba with Paco de Lucía. The rest, if you prefer, may not matter. It might be said that these three pieces are worth many more entire recordings.

You're a flamenco guitarist.

Yeah, but on this recording I've stretched out, expressing myself with other musicians on themes, more than in music, without trying to create fusion. I have a great deal of respect for the word 'fusion.' I'd need two lives, because they're two different ways of understanding music. They're both about vital experiences, so it's not just a question of music; there's a certain philosophy to be dealt with. I think it's impossible to know two cultures so well in a single lifetime. This recording is a meeting with musicians and friends. In fact, I was working for ten years with Paco de Lucía, and the same with Morente, recording and playing live. That's the most flamenco part, along with the alegrías "Tacita de plata." The rest is music; I don't know how to define it. It's listening music, and each one can call if whatever he wants to. But it's neither flamenco nor fusion.

A couple of guitarist friends told me that "Noches de imán y luna" was a recording for guitarists, then you did the Albéniz thing, and now this.

There was more guitar information on the first recording. Guitarists always unload all their years of experience on the first recording. But I wouldn't say that it's a recording for just guitarists. A lot of people told me that they liked it, and they weren't guitar players. I know what I'm doing, because I do what I like, but if I let myself be influenced by what people say, and that kind of criticism, even though it may be constructive, because I don't think it's bad to make a recording for guitarists, but it's also a recording for people that like music, don't you think?

ESSENTIALS

Can you hear your playing in younger players?

Maybe, because, like my good friend Isidro Sanlúcar says, when it rains, you get wet. Anything that you listen to-whether it's my recording or someone else's-is going to influence you. Even if you're wearing a raincoat, you're going to step in a puddle, and then that information is in your subconscious. And if somebody copies me-not necessarily the falseta, but my way of expressing myself, bending notes, and the way I try to express myself on the fretboard-that means that they've heard my recording. And that makes me feel satisfied, because it'll make all those hours of study worthwhile; all those hours I put in at home, and the hours I'll have to put in tomorrow, in order to find my own way of doing things.

It's acknowledged, especially among guitarists, that you're one of flamenco's greatest artists. Is this recording designed to spread that idea?

This recording comes from simplicity. We guitarists always try to do too much with a bulerías or tangos rhythm, and I tried to take another approach on this recording. I took it as a personal challenge, trying to work with just a few elements. Music is always at the service of the idea, because when you work out a falseta-not hearing it first in your head, but letting your fingers work it out-there's a certain danger, because technique can kill the music. That doesn't happen if you think about it first, feeling what you want to express. This is a more mature recording in my career as a solo guitarist, because I'm setting aside certain technical habits that all of us instrumentalists have. I'm looking more at the composition than subconscious technique.

In search of simplicity, of essence.

In fact, I omitted a lot of things from the recording, things that I'd put together as falsetas, with a lot more harmony or notes... In the end, the final question was, "Does this add something; is it essential?" If the answer was no, I took it out, leaving the essence; the minimum to be able to express an idea musically, without the instrument getting in the way.

LIMA, HUMILITY, AND PLATFORMS

Your recording is a lot different from all your collaborations with other artists.

My collaborations with other artists were about lending my flamenco ears, my nuances, my expression, in other music, like on this recording. Although some of the music isn't strictly flamenco, you can hear in my way of playing, in my nuances, that it's a flamenco guitarist playing, that it's not done by a classical guitarist, for example. My way of doing things is flamenco, but in other platforms, in another medium, in this case, working on themes with other artists. But my way of playing and feeling everything that I do is flamenco. I can't do things any other way.

So it's a flamenco recording applied to other kinds of music.

Mmmmm... No, it's just that I can't...

You can't play anything but flamenco even if it's a muñeira.

Well, if we're talking about the rondeña with Enrique Morente, yeah, that's a rondeña; just like the rumba-tango that we did with Paco... The alegrías, yes, those are all specifically flamenco styles, but the thing with Mike Stern isn't flamenco, even though, when I add my part, it sounds flamenco to me.

ABOUT SABADELL

Domingo Patricio was in your group.

Yeah, and he still is. He's a good friend; a flutist. He was important for this recording, helping me out quite a bit. We were working side by side, and that's connected me to him, to Domingo.

He directed the recording with you, and composed the last track "Telares" (textile mills).

Although my parents are from Málaga, I was born in Sabadell, which has always had an important textile industry. Since Domingo is from there, too, it's something we have in common. When I had to think of a title, I came up with "Telares."

Others call it "Telita de Sabadell"…

Yeah, ha, ha.

ROMANCE DEL AMARGO

Diego Carrasco told me seven years ago that he thought that the best flamenco fusion recording was "Romance del Amargo," on "Autorretrato", by Camarón, where you play the guitar. How can you explain that, if you're against fusion?

I'm not against it. From my point of view, I can't do that. It's different. If people think they can do it, that's fine, but my way of being doesn't go that far. Like I said, I'd need to live more than a lifetime to know both worlds. Fusion is about knowledge more than anything else; being aware of what you're doing and why you're doing it. I don't think that "Romance del Amargo" is… at least not my part of it, in my way of accompanying there… I'm Cañizares, I'm who I am playing the guitar. There's no fusion, but there's a cajón and some other instruments that aren't flamenco, but were added little by little. That doesn't mean that it isn't flamenco. Adding a sax or an ocarina doesn't make it fusion, it widens flamenco's timbral palette; it's adding other instruments and other heights, other sounds... provided that the musician playing that instrument knows flamenco. For example, if I play something by Charlie Parker, as hard as I try to play like him, and create the same thing, if I don't know that kind of music-why he did what he did-, and if I'm not aware of those customs, I'll never be able to create something like that. In that sense, in the soleá "Romance del Amargo," that's me; what I felt there playing the guitar, as far as my part is concerned. Everyone's got their own opinion, like in everything, and I respect all opinions, but I defend my own.

In "Romance del Amargo" and in "La tarara" there are jazz chords...

Look Luis, I don't think that there are jazz chords, or flamenco or classical chords. Really. Chords can be joined together to give you a flamenco progression or a jazz progression. An E major is E major for jazz players, for flamenco and for classical musicians, but the way that chord is used is what gives it character; the way it's introduced and the way it progresses towards another chord is what makes it sound like flamenco, or jazz, or classical. People say, "That's a really flamenco-sounding chord." No, that chord exists in other kinds of music; it's just being used differently. Musically speaking, within a context, the chord has two meanings. One is grammatical; what that chord means. Another is what the chord means in that context; where it comes from and where it's going. Harmony is tension and release, tension and release. And if you give me just one chord I can't tell you if it's from flamenco or jazz; you have to give me two or three for me to tell you that it's a flamenco progression. A chord by itself belongs to no kind of music in particular.

KILLING THE EGO

Do you think that the expansion of the guitar has come to a stop; that, in the last few years, it hasn't progressed as much as dancing? There are a lot of good guitarists that have no time to perform solo...

It's a question of decisions. If you think that you have to tell your own story because you see it that clearly, you end up sacrificing other things. I've done that, I've sacrificed things that I liked a lot in order to do what I really liked. There are a lot of young players that are opening the roads of flamenco guitar. But, in order to open those roads, you have to know, you have to go back to those old 78 recordings. Because of the way they were recorded, we can see that it was the way that people lived back then, and it's reflected in the recordings. You have to advance, but with knowledge, and that's important. If I'm learning to play, and I want to start with the latest flamenco recording for guitar, and I forget about dancing and singing, I'm cheating myself: I can't go on to solo guitar if I don't know about the other kinds of flamenco guitar. Guitarists have to learn about singing, to live its essence; and about dancing, because that's where they'll find the rhythmical skeleton of flamenco. There are lots of kids doing things, and that's important, but it's also important to learn about the other forms of guitar, about what's been done, in order not to unintentionally repeat something that was already done forty years ago, and to go thinking that you've invented the wheel.

What things did you start to avoid doing?

Anything that got in the way of the music. It's what I call killing the ego. You know that you can do something harder, but you don't, because it'll get in the way of your expression, so you take notes out to express yourself better. You play guitar using your fingers, and fingers have limitations. If my finger is occupied with two strings, it'll limit my expression because that space is taken up by those bass notes that might not be essential. So, I did some cleaning up, and I kept the things that I like to use in expressing myself.

There are too many notes in the guitar.

There are for some people. I look for simplicity. I don't care if a person plays 400 notes or 2 notes, but it has to be telling me something. I don't care how the guitarist explains it, but it has to reach me. If not, we're not talking about music, but virtuosity, and that's like seeing who can recite the alphabet the fastest; like an athletic competition. Fortunately, music isn't about seeing who can get there first; it's an art form, and the idea is expression.

Paco is responsible for a lot of modern expressions, but you showed that there is still something to do after Paco.

Well, I do what I'm able to do, because Paco is still alive, and he will be for some time. Alive, not only because of what he's done with the guitar, because he's done a lot for flamenco. He'll keep it up because he's a restless type; he's always searching. Fortunately, he's there. Our roads are similar because we're doing the same kind of music, but each one does it in his own way and according to his own feelings, but I never think of a 'before and after.' I do what I feel, and I'm not interested in being a 'before and after.'

You're a schematic guitarist, who tends to reduce things to their essence.

I can express this very clearly with an example. I don't conceive the alegrías from this recording as a series of falsetas. First, I see the whole sonic picture. I hear it in my head, then I look for the pieces to compose it. But it's not like a puzzle, with one piece, and then another... I look for the shape, the specific element, and then I arrive at the general element, which is the concept. That's how I work; more with my head that just pure playing, because it seems to me that when you put things together little by little, either you're a genius, or it's like making a doll that's missing an arm.

ABSTRACT BRUSH STROKES

When you were putting the compositions together, did you have anyone in mind?

I started with the concept of simplicity, and then I tried to put people where they'd be the most comfortable. That was the case with Mike Stern, for example. I tried to compose for the personality of each guest artist, because I can't force anyone to contribute to my composition. It's more logical to fit the compositions to the collaborators, because of the limitations of the instrument itself; the bagpipes are not like a guitar. There are limitations in the range.

Your stint with Brazilian music seems less present.

I went through a period in which I liked Brazilian music a lot, but I got tired of so many chords, because I prefer two chords with character than seven hundred that say nothing. The chord progressions in Brazilian music are great for that kind of music, but they're not appropriate for what I want to do right now. Here, there's a sound from another period of music making; it's a kind of personal challenge, trying to do things with just a few chords that are neither Brazilian nor salsa, just me, with the expression that I've tried to apply to other kinds of music besides flamenco.

DOUBTS, HOURS

During a period in which you weren't composing, you were one of the biggest risk takers in your arrangements. You demonstrated that with Camarón and with Morente.

Yeah, but I'm going to keep on doing that, because that's the way I am. Now I've got this recording, but my head's already going in another direction. I want to do another flamenco recording, because that's what I feel like doing. I felt like doing the Albéniz thing, and I feel like doing a soleá and to keep widening the flamenco world as long as I can. I can't stop doing flamenco, and I don't want to stop, because it's been my way of life since I was born. I've lived in an Andalusian atmosphere all my life, although from Barcelona, because we emigrated.

Are there surprises on "Punto de encuentro?"

I think so. The recording sounds different, just because there are more instruments. It sounds different, and another surprise is the simplicity of my guitar, and the fact that it doesn't complicate things. But this is the Cañizares that you've always known, even though he's playing alongside Hevia.

POLISHED LENS

(Since we're short on time, I go through an accelerated summary of his work. What will he answer? What things has he enjoyed?

All my learning experiences. The Albéniz thing was a series of sonatas that I liked but were very hard to find. It was really hard to find them; I had to go to the music library in Madrid. Maybe having to do a recording of Albéniz because I wanted to has made me look a little more carefully at the music I'm doing, because when you analyze a composer like Albéniz you realize that there aren't any gratuitous notes. Everything is there for a reason... It's opened up my mind to that kind of philosophy; not using technique for technique's sake. That's a mistake that we sometimes make when we're young; we think that it's all a question of speed. It happens to everyone, and I'm at a point where I'm playing fewer notes that are more thought out. More polished.

Is there a Catalán guitar style? Have you heard Chicuelo's recording?

I haven't heard it; I haven't had time. But I can tell you that I don't believe in labels. Not catalan flamenco, not Madrid flamenco, nothing. You have to know, you have to draw from the well, which is all the authentic recordings that exist, and everything else is just dividing things geographically for no logical reason. We can't just invent a fourteen for the soleá, and to define a style you have to start with a series of characteristics. There aren't any in Catalonia, but, for example, in Jerez there are. You can tell when a guitarist or singer is from Jerez because there are certain ways, common characteristics, but in Catalonia there's a great amount of variety. I recognize that Andalusia is the motherland; that's clear. But each artist adds his own way of feeling the music, wherever he might have been born, and this has fortunately been carried over to many other places. I don't consider myself to be a Catalonian flamenco. I try to sing with my own voice.

Interview by Luis Clemente
Translation by Norman Paul Kliman