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The new musical project, ‘Iberia’, also includes flamenco. In what form?

This latest movie, ‘Iberia’, is already finished. I already saw the first copy. It's different because there's flamenco, but there are other things too. There's Enrique Morente, Sara Baras, Antonio Canales, Manolo Sanlúcar who does something beautiful... They gave their all. And there's a traditional dance from Aragón - a 'jota', a Basque dance piece... The fact is that Albéniz wrote some very disparate pieces. And it was interesting to mix flamenco with other things. There's even a number that mixes hip-hop dance with flamenco, which is very interesting because they have a lot in common. My dream is to do a musical, I'm thinking about it seriously, where hip-hop is mixed with flamenco.

In Seville there's a very strong movement in that direction...

Yeah, that's right, when you start to delve... I'd really love to do it. We'll see.

Carlos Saura (Photo: Daniel Muñoz)

What causes that love affair between flamenco and the cinema?

This is stating the obvious. I think flamenco is something that's surprised us all, in that it's a path that opens up as it moves toward the future. It isn't an approach to music or dance or vocals that stagnates, or gets stuck in the past. That could've been dangerous, it'd make it folklore. That’s what happened to traditional Spanish folklore, which is marvelous, but is anchored in the past and just enjoys a revival once in a while. But flamenco - and this is why I'm so unorthodox - works the other way round. It's like jazz in that it can be very orthodox and also very unorthodox... and even less orthodox if needs be. And I struggle hard to be able to open up new and daring pathways, something a little different. I always say to the bailaores that it's fine for them to dance like that, but why not dance differently? Or why not sing differently? Well, there are already marvelous cantaores like Enrique Morente who break down barriers, I find that groundbreaking stuff he does amazing, he takes off in some fantastic directions. And other cantaores do too. On guitar it's easier, there are guitarists who took a chance and came up with some marvelous and very personal stuff. And in baile flamenco you can do it too, instead of sticking to those frameworks...

Do you like the aesthetic flamenco dance more?

I like baile flamenco more than anything. And I can't explain why. Flamenco has something magical about it. There's something that seems easy to say, I mean I think there are few types of dance like flamenco where you can dance from the waist down with your feet pointing toward the ground, and from the waist up with your arms and hands pointing skyward. I think there's no kind of dance with that combination, there are those that are more rigid, but that marvelous way of linking ground and sky is something exclusive to flamenco I think.

Would it be appropriate to make a ‘Flamenco 2’?

I don't know. I'm always willing, but there also has to be an opportunity to do it. I just made ‘Iberia’ and I don't know what I'll do in the future. Flamenco is something that's always present in some way in my life. And it's also true, why should I deny it, that I like other things. For example, I've been asked to do a movie in Portugal on their traditional fado laments. I don't know when, but I'll do it. The fado has no relationship with flamenco but it could have, contrary to what you might think. It isn't so different. I think if a flamenco artist wanted to sing fados, it would be amazing (he laughs). I'm leaving my options open... I think it could be stunning!

How would you define the artistic legacy left behind by Antonio Gades?

	Carlos Saura (Photo: José Albadalejo)

Antonio I think what he did was... And I don't think he even realized - I talked with him a lot. I don't think he's an innovator; he didn't set foot outside of the solid structure of flamenco, which was what he'd learned with Pilar López, and worked on a long time with Cristina Hoyos. He could've been an innovator if he'd moved on. One thing he certainly was is maestro of all contemporary flamenco dance, because it's academy-based dance. Now there's no more of that improvised flamenco dance, because even though current bailaores improvise, they have a basic training. And I think it was Antonio who imposed that; Pilar López too, but above all him. He forced his dancers - I was there at so many rehearsals - to be so disciplined, to have the will to do it well, to go over and over the same stuff, to learn things. Later, they could do whatever they wanted, but they had to respect that. He was an incredible person in terms of discipline and talent. And he was a great choreographer, which a lot of people forget, perhaps as good a choreographer as he was a bailaor. He has a sense of rhythm, of space in the theater...

And of light...

And of light, it's true. He liked photography a lot, like me. In that respect we were kindred spirits. We talked a lot about photography. He gave me cameras when I started collecting them and I'm very attached to them. And he gave me this watch (he shows his left wrist), which is beautiful, I treasure it. The truth is we had an excellent relationship.

What was he like?

He was a man with a dramatic outlook on life, very serious. That surprised me. I always told him - I think he took some notice of me - that the only thing he was lacking was an enjoyment of his dance. He danced as if it were all a great tragedy. I told him he could dance dramatic things, but that he should enjoy the dance. Don't do it because you have an obligation to dance, because you have a company, because you have to do it... I think I taught him a little to enjoy baile, to stop doing it like it was a job. You already have the job, now do whatever you feel like. Enjoy yourself and if you don't enjoy yourself don't dance that, stop dancing like that.

Talking about photography, a short while back a collection of your flamenco photos was published...

It's a beautiful book. And the most surprised of all was me because it was the publisher that did it.

What difference is there between capturing flamenco on a photographic camera and on a movie camera?

Photography is nothing like the cinema, even though it seems like it's very closely-linked. The thing about photography is that it has that other magical thing, leaving behind a part of your life, an instant that’s recorded for posterity, and you can reflect on that. The photos of Lola Flores which are in the book are beautiful, that really is Lola Flores... and you can see it. If not, you have to see the movie, which is something else. They're two different worlds.

Does any artist inspire you right now?

To me the ones I like are the ones I'm working with: Manolo Sanlúcar, Paco de Lucía, Enrique Morente, Sara Baras, Antonio Canales...

The selection fits in well with your tastes...

Of course, I seek out the ones I like best. I regret María Pagés wasn't able to work with me on ‘Iberia’ - she's a good friend of mine and she didn't fit in this particular movie. And some other people I like very much also aren't in there, like Paco de Lucía, because he couldn't, he was going to Mexico and he was already very tired. There are excellent guitarists out there and marvelous people in general. There's Chano Domínguez, for example, who is an innovator that I just love. He played an amazing kind of flamenco-jazz, something between Albéniz, jazz and flamenco, something amazing.

Do you think there could be more activity in flamenco film-making?

I don't know. I initiated a musical direction that caused a lot of raised eyebrows. Even in the U.S., and I'm speaking about ‘Carmen’, not about ‘Flamenco’. Robert Wise, the director of ‘West Side Story’ and president of the Hollywood Film Academy, bestowed a great honor on me when he said: “Saura, I was watching this movie of yours and what most fascinated me was the fact that you inaugurated a new way of making musical cinema.” I don't know - I find it a little exaggerated, but what I do believe is that it's a path that, in some way, others like Win Wenders with Cuban music or Fernando Trueba with Latin jazz are following. But it's true that nobody dabbles in flamenco...

It must be because they don't dare...

Yeah, it seems like it's a territory that nobody's brave enough to mess with. But, hey, I'd like them to leave it to me, not to touch it! I hope it continues to get the respect it deserves, let's not mess it up (he laughs).

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