Antonio el Pipa, bailaor. Flamenco interview

“I love preserving the artform”

Silvia Calado. Madrid, February 2006

Antonio el Pipa faces up to modernity. The Jerez-born bailaor firmly holds on to his stakes on traditional flamenco dancing, which paradoxically has made him feel against the grain. And the results are unsurpassable. ‘De tablao’, his company's new show, is to tour the world's main capitals: New York, London, Paris... And Jerez. He has the audience and the critics on his side, but what fills him most with pride is the placet of great baile maestros like Pilar López. And the thing is that respect for one's elders is a premise of his work, as is shown by the guest list of his latest show, where taking part among others is Juana la del Pipa, Angelita Vargas and Mariana Cornejo. He feeds on them and calls on bailaores starting out to feed on them, advising them to seek out their difference, and above all, “respect for guitar and for cante”.

	Antonio el Pipa on 'De Tablao' (Photo: Daniel Muñoz)

How does the show ‘De tablao’ come about?

It was an assignment for the 2005 Málaga en Flamenco Festival. It's a show as simple as its very name indicates: simply a night at a tablao. And if you go to a tablao you just want to see singing, playing and dancing. Look how simple. The thing is that it's full of force, of so much energy and so much truth. And more so when you have artists like the ones I can show off such as Concha Varas, La Cañeta de Málaga, Juana la del Pipa... Just imagine. I feel really lucky because every time I ask for a collaboration from colleagues of this nature, so great, such jokers, they're the ones who feel thankful. And it's the other way around; I'm the one to be grateful. Then you might come across people who've only been in this for a short time and they don't see it like that.

In the presentation in Madrid, you have Mariana Cornejo and Angelita Vargas as guests. Are you always going to change that as you go along?

Yeah; the show's always going to be the same, with the same choreography and the same wardrobe and lighting design, but changing the guests pumps me up. I don't rule out changing that scene called ‘La atracción’ (‘The Attraction’), the great figure within the group, the way it's always been.

Having guests like that is nearly a chance for them and for the audience, since you don't see them dance very often nowadays...

In the case of Concha Vargas, for example, she usually only does collaborations and dedicates herself to teaching. Mariana Cornejo isn't a woman who appears very often in companies; she does more recitals. She'd nearly banned crossing the water and admitted to me: “I'm getting on a plane for you”. They're special to me. Angelita Vargas, who I've admired a great deal... We can never forget about those who've made this artform great.

It has to be really fun behind the scenes, doesn't it?

That's really true. They're capable of deconstructing a rehearsal for you. There are times when they rehearse by mouth: “I come out over here, you sing for me and we leave. Antonio, we've already finished; let's go for a cup of coffee”. In the end you have to agree with them. They're just such ‘monsters’ that that's all they need. And when they start telling you their anecdotes: when they were with Mario Maya in such-and-such a place, when they coincided in New York... Concha Vargas, look at the experiences she's had. We did a two-month stay on Broadway with Manuel Morao & Gitanos de Jerez, back when my dance partner was Sara Baras. We're really happy with Flamenco Festival USA, but flamenco's always been very big in the United States. I was 19 years old when we were there those two months at the Plymouth Theater, and across the street was ‘Cats’, ‘Les Misérables’ and ‘The Phantom of the Opera’. It's lucky for us that flamenco goes on evolving. Then there's the criteria of how it should evolve.

Antonio el Pipa on 'De Tablao' (Photo: Daniel Muñoz)

What other episodes in the life of a tablao does the show display?

We also relate the bickering between the three beauties who challenge each other to see who dances best. They want to do so much that it all comes out badly for them and in comes the older one, the one who has experience, to put them in their place. It's also a lesson. There's the flirtation between the bailaora and the bailaor, but we don't tell a tale. We show two glances, half a hug... to point out that there could be love scenes.

What's the main feature of the work?

Above all, it's a show full of force. For example, my soleá, which is something very important to me, I use to close the show and I make it everyone's soleá, since it's where I invite the collaborations. The soleá, to the contrary of how I usually do it with my Aunt Juana, is sung to me by the three cantaores and it's in the romances part where I make room for my guests. I've played with the esthetics simply. My choreographies are very based on the esthetics; I was inspired by photos of tablaos in the sixties and seventies, by the women's poses...

How did you get the inspiration of the tablao?

	"I've sought what is ‘Typical Spanish’ conscientiously because I don't think we should be ashamed of it"

It was something magical. Last year Blanca del Rey invited me to go to El Corral de la Morería one night. I had dinner there, she dedicated her baile to me and I had no choice but to come out and dance, but out of need, because of what I felt when I saw her dancing, since I admire her a great deal. And the truth is we shook things up right away; those things that sometimes happen to us artists when we get together. Afterwards, we met again and she told: “Don't get it wrong; capture very simple, very sincere pictures”. And I really listened to her. That night was very useful to me. I thought out how a lady with so much weight could dance in two square meters. That inspiration knocked the simplicity up a notch. I use the bata de cola; it's something I take up again in a soleá through bulerías the four women do with me, with María José Franco as lead bailaora. It's a show in which I've had a great deal of fun. There's a very simple stage design, made with graffiti on Persian blinds. It provides it with a curious touch. I've sought what is ‘Typical Spanish’ conscientiously because I don't think we should be ashamed of it. The wardrobe has been painstakingly put together. I think it's really funny when I'm told it's very original, when it's done with frills and shawls. We pull out a fan, castanets and a Córdoba hat. Resounding ‘Typical Spanish’.

Málaga, London, Paris, New York, Jerez...

I'm really happy it's going to premiere in four of the world's top capitals, including Jerez. Something very important that's happened is the public's request for a second night at Málaga's Teatro Cánovas. That's amazing. There was an uproar because a great many people were left out in the cold and those things hurt, but you really like them. And if it had been up to me, I'd have done two shows that night. I'm not one to deny my show to anybody. As luck would have it, a new show was added onto the program and it sold out again. I have to give the organization my congratulations for their agility.

What moment would you say you're at in your professional career?

I always have the sensation I've still got a lot to do, but I have to be sincere with you and say that I'm really focused. I think I've even already matured all my past within this career. It's clear in my mind that I'm really hard-working and that nobody's given anything away to me. And I have that more and more on the rise. You've got to defend what you have in this world with cloak and dagger; I don't believe in the artist who doesn't have a foundation, who doesn't consolidate himself as a person and as a creator. And luckily, it's become clearer and clearer to me what my personality is in my career. In the Flamenco Festival USA program, it says something like “Antonio el Pipa, the most traditional vision of flamenco”. And that honors me more and more. I love being traditional; I love preserving the artform. However, I don't aim to do so; it's clear to me that I dance the way I feel it. I don't know how to do it any other way.

However, I really felt like taking the plunge with ‘Pasión y ley’ and I'm very proud of having done it. I saw that I needed to dance another way and be influenced by another discipline. I did so, and when I wanted to dance to a different type of music, I think I did so truly and with a great musician like Dorantes. When I wanted to have the pleasure of dancing with someone who wasn't a bailaora, I think I did so with one of the greatest; Lola Greco. And now it's even clearer to me what my road to follow is, what my personality is, why I dance: my weight is in my arms, my weight is in the esthetics. And that's the way I really feel it. I think since I'm not getting started, I don't have to do false virtuosity either to command applause through technique. I love when we command applause closing a phase through soleá or when lyrics finish through alegrías. That's the applause I like.

Haven't you ever felt forced to be ‘modern’?

I've had the sensation of being alone, of going against the grain. At times I've doubted if I was taking the right road or if I should turn and go where everyone's going. Thank God I didn't do it. There's a personal treasure I have and it's the appreciation of the dance greats in Spain. Without mincing my words, I can say that I'm proud to feel the support of maestra Pilar López, Matilde Coral, Blanca del Rey, maestro Gades... Something extraordinary happened to me. I really wanted to meet him and when I was going to introduce myself, he goes and asks me: “Are you the kid from Jerez people have been telling me so much about?” And I was unhinged. He was a genius. I was getting ready to introduce myself, praying that he'd notice me... And I loved his sincerity in telling me that he hadn't seen me, but that he'd been told about me.

Every time I come to Madrid, Pilar López is always in my dressing room. And she judged me once: “You know you've chosen the hardest road, don't you? But I'm going to ask you never to change, and please, never take off your short suit”. And I'm glad I didn't change, because I would've been the last one in line. I just want to be me and not compete with anybody. I don't think artistic competition exists. I don't think Murillo was better than Velázquez, or that Van Gogh was better than Picasso. Flamenco, just like painting, has room for everyone, from the most avant-garde artist to the kid getting started, from the recognized lady to he who upholds the traditional. That's motivating.

How do you size up those getting started nowadays?

I think they come with a lot of hopefulness, with a great deal of desire, but with little information about true flamenco. As long as they do something that doesn't look like what the rest are doing, I like it. They shouldn't try to dance like anybody, or be more commercial than the next guy. They should dance the way they really feel it. And I would like to see something new that really does pain me: I don't see the respect for guitar and for cante I think I feel. I don't think there are new bailaores who dance to cante; they don't show it due respect. It's very clear to me that baile doesn't exist if it isn't with a good guitar and good cante. Then we're seeing skilled people, people who are technically reaching the moon, but flamenco is much more earthly than lunar.

I long to see people who really dance. I love to say olé, but lately it's hard to get an olé out of me. When I see something so simple like when they stand firm and take up their places, then they get an olé out of me. That happens to me with artists like Manuela Carrasco, Blanca del Rey... Older people continue to get it out of me more than young people. And I'd love for it to be the other way around. I think young people are too technified. In fact, I don't think I've had anything to do with the generation I've lived in, but I think that's been my fate. I haven't been a bailaor to put my hand on my vest and do heel tapping for three hours... One thing I miss is the connection with the crowd. Do you forget there are people who've paid to see you? You can never forget about that. There's something called professionalism and that comes to you over the years. Counting things up, in 2007 we'll celebrate the company's 10th anniversary. Blessed was the moment I went against the grain.