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Interview with Antonio el
Pipa, bailaor:
"These days there's a lack of charisma
out there, so flamenco 'bailaores' have to make up for it using gimmicks"
Silvia Calado Olivo. Jerez, March 2002
Antonio el Pipa has turned over a new leaf. He's begun to venture out on
his own, without any backing from his family, thus doing away with "those
guarantees that I'll always get the crowds up on their feet." Having passed
the test of authenticity he takes on the world single-handed. And he's begun his
lone voyage with a daring project: "putting on a show which is pure dance
and choreography", a show which, although it needs some finishing touches,
he's more than happy with. 'De Cai, el baile' (Dance from Cadiz) was premièred
at this year's edition of the 'Festival de Jerez', in the flamenco bailaor's home
town. And it's given the dancer a chance to reflect on his relationship with flamenco,
and on the current state of this genre. Within the ranks of flamenco performers
he says he finds more use of gimmicks than true personality, and on the outside
he finds audiences who, while they try not to let it show, are a little naïve.
Antonio el Pipa (Photo: Daniel Muñoz)
Do you think that people associate Antonio el Pipa with a particular style?
Fortunately, as a 'bailaor' I've already done all I wanted to do, and I've
been working with my private dance company for five years now. And the fact is
that audiences don't look at Antonio el Pipa, they look at the Antonio el Pipa
company and our style. That gives me the freedom to keep changing, because I don't
want to get typecast as only putting on a certain type of show, for example. 'De
Cai, el baile' is nothing like my previous work, it's a showcase of how people
dance, that's why it features five completely different bailaores. And we managed
to choreograph it just how I wanted, without it seeming like a ballet. I tried
to make it feel like a company. Now I know I have to take a while to sit down
and take a careful look at the video of that show - before the première
it's hard to envisage what it's going to be like. You never know what your child's
going to be like until it's born.
You don't want to get typecast, but you don't try to wander too far away
from your style either...
Absolutely not. The last show: three guitars, the voices of two flamenco 'cantaores'
and the furious handclapping of one 'palma'. Guajiras, colombianas, farrucas,
soleás, martinetes... Nothing weird and wonderful. But you know why I don't
get mixed up in other stuff? Because I don't feel it inside, but I don't feel
in a position to criticise it either. If someone want's to stick a lute or a double
bass in their work or a jazz fusion, that's great, I'm not in a position to criticise
them. But for me, Antonio el Pipa, that doesn't do anything for me. And in praise
of flamenco dance I can truthfully say it doesn't need any tricks. 'Baile flamenco'
doesn't need an orchestra behind for it to make an impression. You can dance without
music, I've done it myself dancing with no backing music to bulerías. That's
been my experience at least... and I'm 31 and have been making a living from this
since I was 15. The day I need to dance to the sound of a violin or a flute I'll
do it out of necessity, when my body and my soul tell me I need to try something
new.
Do you feel a reference is being made to you when some more veteran 'bailaores'
criticise current trends in flamenco dance?
The flamenco legends have very much supported me, taken me under their wing,
so to speak. Matilde Coral collaborated on my project 'Generaciones' and I don't
feel I go against the grain or clash with my elders, the masters. I can identify
much more with the things they say than with what the younger artists say.
And do you agree with them that things are in disarray?
Yeah, flamenco's getting totally out of hand, and it's because there's nothing
to discuss, because to dance the only thing you need is charisma. And since these
days there's a lack of charisma out there, they have to make up for it using gimmicks.
When you have enough presence to fill a stage, solo, with your dancing, you don't
need anything else. But when you don't have that stage presence, you don't have
the overwhelming personality it takes to fill a stage, then you have to start
to look for gimmicks, which is what's happening these days. I can understand Merche
Esmeralda or Mario Maya - even though I come from a different generation it gives
me a good deal of strength to watch them; they're the ones with power, the ones
who hold the keys of flamenco. I prefer to think that Mario is still the lord
of the dance and not some new kid who suddenly appears doing weird stuff. Respect
for ones elders is sacred to me.
Antonio el Pipa (Photo: Daniel Muñoz)
Are you in favour of evolution?
Of course. It might seem that the two things are incompatible. You can be an
innovator, be in the middle of a process of evolution, but not lose your respect
for what's gone before. I'm the grandson of Tía Juana "la del Pipa"
and I can never forget whose grandson I am, even though I can't forget either
that I'm thirty and I live in modern times. The test is to keep putting on shows
with different flavours and appear in a 'De Cai', for example, dancing to a guajira
with a humorous twist, or using a bulería to dance solo. It means taking
risks, for me that's what innovation's all about. Evolution? It's a must. Pilar
López said to me once, "I'm in favour of evolution, not revolution."
And I'll never forget those words, just as I'll never forget that Pilar López
begged me never to change.
| "I'll never forget that Pilar López begged me never
to change" |
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Do audiences receive you as warmly in Jerez as in other places?
(Ha ha!). I'd be lying if I didn't say that in Jerez they're just a little
bit warmer. If only I were as popular everywhere. I feel very much supported here.
But I feel the same support when I arrive at the Teatro de la Zarzuela in Madrid
and tickets have sold out two weeks previously. I love being in Jerez, I get a
buzz from it, but I love to go to Madrid and for my shows to sell out there. That
gives you a good vibe as an artist...
A personal question: you have a gift for winning over audiences, don't you?
(Ha ha!). I suppose so... Before I was talking about having a personality and
I don't know if it's a good or a bad thing, but I dance in a personal way. The
audience is there and they've gone to a theatre to see you dance for them and
to make them forget their problems. They've paid the entrance fee and they want
to disconnect. I'm a person who needs to feel an audience looking on, although
I need to dance for my own benefit before the benefit of others. And once I'm
dancing for myself and I start to feel good, what I try to do is share that feeling.
Everyone asks me, "Why do you laugh so much when you're dancing?" Because
I'm the happiest man in the world! When an audience goes to see someone who starts
doing weird stuff, inaccessible stuff or I don't know what, they start feeling
uneasy, wondering if it's in 3:4 or 5:4 time, or if he's dancing to a soleá
or a seguiriya, in the end they start to fidget in their seats and they end up
saying, "Phew, thank God that's over!" I couldn't bear to let an audience
feel uncomfortable with me.
Some people search for that reaction though...
And I couldn't criticise them. One thing I do have, above all else, is a respect
for my colleagues' work, regardless of the type of work they do. I want the audience
to enjoy themselves, because I want to enjoy myself too. Did you see the smile
on the faces in the audience with Raúl? Did you see how they laughed during
that guajira? Did you see how the audience saw the funny side? That's when I say
to myself "Ole!", give myself a pat on the back, because I wanted to
have a bit of fun with that. I see Raúl in the studio and I say to him,
"you're a pain in the ass, you never stop dancing" and in the end he
takes centre stage in the guajira and the audience got the joke. Ole! I mean a
lot of times there are things you feel or think but you don't know how to capture
them or bring them to life on stage.
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"Audiences are becoming less and less demanding because they're
more and more naïve"
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Bearing in mind that rapturous applause for a bulería is taken for
granted in Jerez these days, do you think it's fair to say that it's easy to get
an audience on their feet?
No, it isn't easy, it's just that in Jerez bulerías are exceptionally
well-received. Just now Teatro Villamarta is overflowing with people who aren't
from Jerez, people who come from all over the world to see the shows. And that
applause is starting to become the norm. I think these days anything gets a rapturous
applause, and audiences are becoming less and less demanding because they're more
and more naïve. To be able to say what you like you have to have a fair breadth
of knowledge, but I think that breadth is dwindling these days. There aren't many
people who can dance in different styles, but really do it properly. Before we
had, for example Mario, Güito, Manolete, Gades, Farruco... all of them were
heavyweights. These days it's as if we're confused. That's why we don't all get
recognition in the same space of time. Either you jump on the bandwagon and do
what's hip at the time, or you slog away at it. It takes time before you can reap
the rewards.
How do you get feedback on a show if you don't trust the applause?
First of all, you have to have a clear conscience about what you're trying
to represent on stage. I take what critics and journalists say very seriously,
but it matters more to me first what I think about my show and second what the
audience thinks - you have to respect your public. One of the most beautiful comments
that's been made about my work was a phone call from a great fan of my dancing,
but one who doesn't pull any punches, saying "Congratulations, simply because
your show is completely different from the previous ones, but you haven't sacrificed
your purity. It's a Flamenco show and it's Flamenco dance with a capital F".
That's what I wanted to hear. That's how you start to get a feel for the rapport
you have with audiences.
When you take on the role of instructor, what do you try to get across to
your students?
My own vision of dance, I mean how important dance is and how many of life's
landscapes can be portrayed using dance as a medium... from overflowing euphoria
plunging into depression, and knowing how to dance that. Above all I teach the
emotion of dance, how to feel good dancing, how not to get tired dancing. I use
dance to feel good about myself, because it's where I start to feel at one with
myself. There are two me's: one is Antonio at home - my wife's Antonio, my daughter's
Antonio; the other one is Antonio el Pipa, who belongs to his audiences. I have
to be aware of who I am to be able to go out and show people on stage. In my classes
I also try to get across something very much underrated these days, and that is
the importance of arms, of aesthetics in dance... Things can't go on as they are,
it seems like it doesn't matter any more whether you've got your composure or
not, whether you're in position or not. What matters is that you're coming up
with crazy footwork. And it's our duty as the teachers of the new generation,
the generation that has to carry on the tradition, never to skip over the basics.
I feel part of the burden of responsibility for the future of flamenco dance.
| "I prefer to dance artistically rather than to dance technically" |
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What importance do you attach to technique?
For me, technical skill comes second to artistic flair. You need to have the
technique, to help you to dance, you have to study it until it's second nature
and you don't have to think about it anymore. I prefer to dance artistically rather
than to dance technically.
Does the way the major flamenco festivals are run force you to reinvent
yourself?
You can't reinvent yourself, we aren't machines. The market might demand it
of you, but you have to be true to yourself. You have to bear in mind that time
passes and you have to set new challenges for yourself, but deep inside you're
still the same person. The Antonio el Pipa who dances today is the same one as
five years ago, but with new knowledge... There is a certain amount of pressure,
above all in the major festivals like Festival de Jerez or Seville's Biennial
Flamenco festival, where they want premières. I'm not really sure if this
year I'm going to première a new show at the Seville Biennial festival,
I don't think I can - it's impossible to do a new show every month. First because
to produce a show is expensive, and second because of time constraints, because
you can't apply tight deadlines to true creativity.
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