Flamenco x 2. Interview with Carmen Linares and Juan Carlos Romero

“We can’t take Juan Ramón Jiménez
to our ground; we have to go to his”

Silvia Calado. Seville, September 2008
Translation: Joseph Kopec

Federico García Lorca, Antonio Machado, Miguel Hernández, José Bergamín and even San Juan de la Cruz. Flamenco has always found inspiration in Spanish poets. But there was still a pending matter: Juan Ramón Jiménez. And the ones who have dared to tackle his intellectual and literary sophistication - coincidentally, on the fiftieth anniversary of his death - are Juan Carlos Romero and Carmen Linares. The Huelva-born guitarist and composer and the Jaén-born cantaora are two artists for whom the aphorism entitling the album seems tailor-made: “Roots and wings, but the wings are deep-rooted and the roots fly to continuous metamorphoses”.

Carmen Linares (Photo Daniel Muñoz)

What leads you to express Juan Ramón Jiménez’s poetry through flamenco cante and toque?

Juan Carlos Romero: It was suggested by Carmen Linares and Miguel Espín. In a conversation on poetry, Juan Ramón Jiménez’s name came up and we talked about how he hadn’t been paid the attention which such a great poet deserved. After that, Miguel and Carmen encouraged me to get involved in it. I told them that Juan Ramón was really complicated... But in short, I started doing stuff little by little, I got enthused with what arose, I’d send it to Carmen... And she’d tell me that she really liked it, for me to keep on going, to keep on going.

Carmen Linares: In Mexico you sang “arriba canta el pájaro” for me, do you remember? You told me to listen to it in the hotel room. How beautiful, my goodness.

What was the work process like?

J.C.R.: The first thing was to compose the music and then send it to Carmen.

C.L.: But there was a previous job of choosing poems. Juan Carlos had a few poems chosen, when we saw any we liked we’d send it to him, even friends who knew the work have contributed dozens of poems to us which we would choose from. It was a matter of obtaining as much information as possible.

Did you follow any selection criteria or was it purely by hunch?

J.C.R.: It was by hunch. Juan Ramón’s work is extremely extensive and with a lot of quality. I didn’t know what criteria to use to make a selection in a work like that. I guided myself with everything I had on the table. I don’t know how many sheets I had. I kept on reading and reading and when I found harmony for I don’t know what reason with a poem, then I said this one. And from there even the style came up which it could be done in. But we didn’t try to choose poems from his early period or exile, or on a specific subject.

	Carmen Linares: “We didn’t want to count them up for all the ‘Juan Ramons’ there are to appear; rather, it was by hunch”

C.L.: I was asked in an interview which Juan Ramón we’ve captured. We didn’t want to count them up for all the ‘Juan Ramons’ there are to appear; rather, it was by hunch, the one you liked... even if they belonged to the same period. We didn’t aim to do a profile of his entire work; no.

Nor does it have such clearly musical meter...

J.C.R.: No, there are even poems that have been musicalized even though their meter doesn’t lend itself to it at all. But since I’d decided that it’d be by hunch, I took my hunches to the end. For example, a poem paying tribute to Zenobia, that of ‘Mares y soles’, isn’t at all easy to musicalize...

C.L.: It sounded easy... but you tricked me!

J.C.R.: When you read it you say “my goodness, how am I going to get a grip on this?”. The meter is uneven, but I said “let’s go for it”.

Are the cante melodies designed by Juan Carlos?

C.L.: I’ve performed it; he gave it to me finished.

And did he make it hard for you?

C.L.: Yes. Totally. I counted on some of them being a little easier. Then I started to sing it and the thing is that it isn’t just singing it; there are a great many more things. You also have to express what he’s composed, you have to feel it that way and get into what he’s wanted to do. At least, I’ve tried to.

J.C.R.: She hasn’t just tried, she’s done so. And I say so straight out. I remember a phone call I made to her one night coming back from the studio. I had to take three songs from the studio and I listened to them in the car. And I had to call her to tell her that it was really good.

C.L.: And for him to call me... Juan Carlos doesn’t pay compliments.

	Juan Carlos Romero: “I’m happy because Carmen Linares has plunged into the mud”

J.C.R.: I’m not one to pay compliments; I might be guilty of being dry. But it’s the truth; it was really good. Singing a melody shouldn’t be too hard for a person who sings well, with a good ear and skill. But it isn’t just about you knowing the melody; that’s just the surface. There’s mud under the surface and if you don’t touch the mud, you haven’t understood that. I’m happy because Carmen has plunged into the mud.

Carmen, was the work similar for you to that of ‘Locura de brisa y trino’ with Manolo Sanlúcar?

C.L.: It’s similar in that both of them are very great musicians and composers and the two of them have followed the line of making music for verses. They’re two different albums, but they’re made with the same spirit and the same form.

J.C.R.: The thing is that in Manolo’s case, it’s a guitar album which Carmen Linares collaborates on. And this is an album made expressly for her voice.

I was asking, above all, because of how infrequent it is to compose for cante...

C.L.: In that sense, yes.

J.C.R.: But let’s say that this is Carmen’s album and that was Manolo’s album which Carmen collaborated on...

Do you really consider it Carmen’s album?

J.C.R.: Ha ha ha. Of course not. Not just because, but the thing is that there’s so much of me on it... From the very first take until the last clap, I’m always there.

C.L.: He didn’t sing on it because he has little voice, as his mother says. Ha ha ha.

How is the flamenco expressed on this album?

J.C.R.: There are certain cantes, certain compositions, which I think are very flamenco. But they don’t cling so much to flamenco’s structures.

C.L.: The rhythm does, but the melody...

J.C.R.: The harmonies and melodies go down a different path. But it’s there. Basically, if you do a rhythm por soleá and you get into that subject, the soleá appears... But it appears as a reference; it isn’t a soleá with a traditional structure.

The disc takes the title ‘Raíces y alas’ from an aphorism by Juan Ramón. Do you identify with that idea as artists?

C.L.: Totally. To me, it doesn’t just apply to flamenco, but rather to all art.

J.C.R.: Wings that take root and roots that fly...

	Carmen Linares: “It’s what many of us artists have been saying for many years; that you have to have roots, but you have to fly. Check out how flamenco Juan Ramón was!”

C.L.: If you have roots, you can fly... It’s so well-defined, so poetic, so beautiful, that I’m going to say so in every interview! It’s perfect. It’s what many of us artists have been saying for many years; that you have to have roots, but you have to fly... and if you fly it’s with roots. Check out how flamenco Juan Ramón was!

In the press conference prior to the live premiere at Bienal 2008, you emphasized the word “seriousness” when working, saying that sometimes it’s missing in flamenco...

J.C.R.: Getting involved in a project with Juan Ramón and not doing it seriously means that you’re no longer paying tribute to Juan Ramón. It would mean being disrespectful to the very figure of Juan Ramón, to how he felt, to how he lived, to every artistic question, to his relationship with poetry... He was a methodic man, a man with attention to detail. If we wanted to be true to our intention, which is to pay tribute to Juan Ramón, we had to be serious. And we said seriousness because we wanted to be accurate with regards to his very figure. We didn’t really want to use it, but rather to really pay tribute to it with seriousness, admiration and affection.

Juan Carlos Romero: “If we wanted to be true to our intention, which is to pay tribute to Juan Ramón, we had to be serious”

That’s to say that in this case, the poetry wasn’t an easy resource...

J.C.R.: We didn’t want to fall into that trap.

C.L.: The thing is that we don’t have to, we really don’t need to. If we aren’t true and honest to ourselves, now at the age we’re at we aren’t going to fool ourselves ever.

J.C.R.: We’ve had this conversation constantly during this time because I’ve really insisted on the matter. I’ve always told Carmen that it can’t be that we want to take Juan Ramón to our ground; we have to go to his. And may his words be what tells us which way to go. Everything that’s the other way around is a lie, is artificial.

Further information Bienal de Flamenco de Sevilla 2008. Carmen Linares & Juan Carlos Romero, premiere of ‘Raíces y alas’. Review, photos, video Interview with Carmen Linares, cantaora Interview with Juan Carlos Romero, guitarist