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Are there any pillars left in Jerez?

Of the ones there are nowadays … I’ll take my cousin, José Mercé. There won’t be any more cantaores like Chocolate or La Paquera. Now there are other cantaores with other ways of singing. Even the echoes from the past have nothing to do with the ones there are nowadays.

What does “being juncal” mean to you?

Being juncal is being a gypsy. It’s a way of being. Behaving well, showing everyone respect and being a good person. It doesn’t mean singing well; God gives you that.

Luis el Zambo (Photo: Daniel Muñoz)

What did the parties use to be like in the olden days with the “señoritos” (“young gentlemen”)?

Before, the “señoritos”, when they’d had a couple of drinks, used to call out the artists and treat them like jesters. They’d sing a little and they’d give each of them a hundred pesetas. That was really ugly. But it’s all because there are “señoritos” and “señores” (“gentlemen”). The former are more bad-tempered and the latter have finer tastes. There are señores who do know how to treat artists, giving them the pay they deserve. And I’m not just referring to money. For an artist to sing well, you’ve got to pamper him and let him sing his own way. They shouldn’t be on top of you telling you to sing again and again and again … not like that. Thank God things have changed and now they treat you totally differently. They’re more polite and more respectful. It’s clear that when you’re hired to go to a party, you’re obliged to sing. But we choose the moment. Before there used to be a lot of joking around and a lot of bad-tempered people.

As a cantaor, what is the nicest experience you can remember so far?

It was in Logroño. I went there with maestro Chocolate and maestro Agujetas. I was the youngest and a round of martinetes had to be done. I was embarrassed to sing next to those two. Then the three of us got up on stage, but I took two steps back. Each of us sang a set of lyrics and when we finished, people loved it. I took another two steps back for them to take a bow. And I loved when maestro Antonio called me and gave me my place to take a bow in that theater. That was the nicest experience I can remember. Tears ran down my face from the thrill.

Where do you feel more at ease singing; at a party or at a theater?

Where I like singing more is at a theater because people who go there are going to sit down calmly to listen to flamenco. And you can hear a pin drop. In a theater you’re singing for the audience and for yourself. The party’s different; they don’t listen to you, there’s the murmur of the people, you do your own thing … but oh well. At the festivals people are more interested in the fried fish in a paper cone, the beer or the sherry. People don’t go to listen to singing, but rather to escape the heat in their houses and have a good time.

How do you like cante more; beaten out or with guitar?

I like cante beaten out. Look at what shape my knuckles are in (he shows them and laughs). I think with beaten-out cante is how you learn to sing. Cante came before guitar. You can breathe beaten-out cante better and sing more slowly. The guitar can set you a rhythm and a speed which might not be yours.

How would you define the bulería corta de Jerez?

The bulería corta “to listen to” isn’t the bulería through soleá. The latter is a way done by Tomás Pavón, El Gloria and La Niña de los Peines, among others, with guitar. But the corta de Jerez is done another way and it’s a style that’s being lost. It’s done very little now and it’s a shame. At some point I’d like to be able to sing bulerías “to listen to” in Jerez. I already did something like that with my brothers and sisters at the Bulería Festival and people really liked it. Young people might not understand that a cante is done without guitar, but if the cantaor has a good voice and good faculties, it can turn out really nice.

What difference is there between the bulería from Barrio de Santiago and the bulería from La Plazuela?

In my opinion, I think that in La Plazuela the cante is fought with more. In Santiago it’s sung differently. It’s always all depended on the performers. That doesn’t mean one way’s better than the other, or vice versa. After all, we’re talking about the bulería de Jerez.

Which flamenco style do you prefer?

The soleá. There’s a really broad range; the greatest there is in cante. It’s a vast route, from Cádiz to Alcalá, passing through Jerez, Triana, Los Puertos… They’re cantes which Mairena put in order. There have been a lot of good soleá cantaores. The hardest one might be the soleá de Triana by El Cagancho, but the one Las Pompi used to do in Jerez is also quite complicated. After that, I prefer the seguiriya because it’s a cante that hurts and is felt. In reality, all cante is nice depending on who performs it. Alegrías, bulerías… not everybody knows how to sing bulerías well. It isn’t the same as singing variety songs through bulerías, which is the “in” style now. Since Bambino came out, the variety song bulería has become “in”. In ‘Rito y geografía del cante’ Mairena says “not everyone knows how to sing bulerías. You’ve got to have rhythm and know what you’re singing”. That’s what Antonio Mairena said and it must be for some reason, because when he used to say something was good, it was good.

Jerez is identified a lot with the bulería. Do you think it should be pigeonholed with just that style?

It’s been identified a lot with it beginning with the celebration of the Bulería Festival and other things like that. Everything’s always been sung in Jerez. There have been great cantaores who’ve sung everything. Mojama or Don Antonio Chacón himself, who did I don’t know how many styles through malagueñas. Manuel Torre… we’re talking about big names. What happens is that people tend to identify us with that. Just like the cartagenera with La Unión, and who promoted the cantes de Levante? Chacón, who sang the cantes from there better than the artists themselves who were born in that area. So we shouldn’t get pigeonholed with just the bulería.

Is singing done differently now?

I think so. It’s what we talked about before about the hardship and the hunger suffered by our ancestors. People used to sing better than now. Everything that was sung three or four decades ago was better than what there is now. In fact, we’re living off of everything they left to us. After so many years they’re still there, so they couldn’t have been so bad … I remember El Beni de Cádiz, who was a great cantaor. That was the nicest voice ever to come out of Cádiz. La Perla de Cádiz and El Mellizo really used to sing well, but El Beni was especially charming.

Of those old-timers … who would you like to have had a cante tête-à-tête with?

With El Gloria, Frijones or Manuel Torre. Truly pure cantaores. That would’ve been a blessing. They’re great maestros. Moreover, they used to have something really special and it was that they competed in the cantes with each other. That doesn’t happen any more nowadays. Each person does his own thing and it’s all measured out. There’s a lot of envy. My grandfather used to tell me “there was no worse enemy than that of your guild”. And I have that etched here. But oh well, I don’t get along badly with anyone. But there are certain things nowadays that I just can’t understand.

What future do you foresee for Jerez’s cante?

I see that there are few of us there … but Jerez’s cante is never going to come to an end. If good artists don’t come out now, well then, they’ll come out down the line. And with regards to the new stuff that’s being done, I want to say that I’m not going against any artist. Doing something new and modern has its merit. You give flamenco more magnitude with that. The only thing I vindicate is that pure cante shouldn’t be lost. Young people who are seventeen or eighteen years old listen to that modern stuff, but when they’re older they seek out the roots, because that’s where cante’s truth lies.

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