NIÑO JOSELE, FLAMENCO GUITARIST. INTERVIEW
“Flamenco is crying out
for a change”
Silvia Calado/ Flamenco-world.com. Madrid, November
2009
He says so quite clearly: “This
is my first album”. Niño
Josele understands that ‘Española’
– which in reality is his fifth record - is a turning
point not just in his career as a guitarist, but also as
a musician. And the key to this change is that the album
which filmmaker Fernando Trueba has produced for him knows
nothing of limits between styles or genres. Jazz, latin
and flamenco music cross paths with the utmost freedom on
a disc which pays tribute to Bebo Valdés just as
it does so to Paco de Lucía and McCoy Tyner. And
as the Almería-born guitarist admits, “it was
hard for me to understand it because it’s a really
new way of seeing music for me, but now I know that it’s
something important for the future, since it gives me a
really broad vision to do great things with music”.
Niño Josele |
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The first sensation given by ‘Española’
is that it’s an album which can’t be covered
in a single listening…
Good records have to be listened to several
times to be understood and bad records, like the ones there
are now that go pumchiquipum, you listen to them
for a while and no more. I have noticed a really big change
on this album for the way of understanding music from a
flamenco. It’s a new way of seeing flamenco for me.
There’s really open stuff; it doesn’t turn into
a flamenco album with the typical refrain, the typical clapping
and the same structure, but rather a music album. I think
up until now flamenco has been missing a little bit more
music, especially on guitar albums. What I have noticed
is that when I took the songs to the musicians, they all
told me that it wasn’t flamenco, that it was music.
Well, in my codes, this is a soleá, this is a seguiriya,
this is a bulería… I do know that I’ve
made a big effort on this record. I’d just come from
playing on tour with Paco de Lucía, five years with
‘Cositas buenas’, and I felt a little bit more
prepared as a guitarist, more aware of what I’m doing.
And after ‘Paz’, which was music by Bill Evans,
I really felt like composing new stuff. And I’ve found
another way to compose.
And is that work about Bill Evans
what gives you a different way of composing?
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Niño Josele |
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Yes, Bill Evans and a little bit everything
that I’ve lived over the past few years. The environment
I’ve been in, I’ve always been very restless
and I’ve liked doing many things: from Argentinean
tango to classical music and jazz. I think that fusion comes
out if you carry it open without any type of fear towards
other music, if you do it with the truth your music has
and your flamenco, and if you see things are really calm
and really normal.
Do you think flamencos are afraid
of other types of music?
No, I think what flamencos need is to open
up more to other types of music, for them to come out of
the musical family which there is in flamenco a little bit.
If you come from flamenco training and you’re a person
who likes to learn new things, you’re doing flamenco
some good. There was an era and now there’s another
era. Until now, what’s been done with guitar is a
record which you already know is like: the lyrics here,
the clapping here, the choruses and this structure. I had
changing that in mind and thanks to Trueba, I’ve managed
to. And just from being with him, for he is a really open
person and he is unbiased when saying that I’m not
playing flamenco, but rather music. He gives you room, security
and makes you move forward. When you get down to composing,
you never know how it’s going to turn out on the album...
Nearly all of the scores on the
disc are yours…
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“I’m
not Paco de Lucía nor am I trying to be him because
he’s the greatest in history; I’m trying
to be Josele”
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All of them except one song. Well really,
the song by McCoy Tyner has three chords, but wow, what
three chords, how complicated. That song sounded flamenco
to me. You always do your bit, your flamenco arrangements,
but to me it’s a song which is as if it were tangos
and since he is paying Spain a tribute with music close
to Spanish music, well why not call it ‘Española’,
as Trueba said, and thus he’s paid tribute in passing,
just like there are tributes to three other great maestros:
Bebo Valdés, Paco de Lucía and Bill Evans.
How is that tribute to Paco
de Lucía captured?
The song ‘Camino de Lucía’
is a rondeña paying tribute to the maestro because
I’ve spent five years listening to him play on stage
and I wanted to capture the spirit of his form, of his expression.
That’s how ‘Camino de Lucía’ came
about, which is a rondeña, an emblem of his. I’m
not Paco nor am I trying to be him because he’s the
greatest in history; I’m trying to be Josele, but
I do want to at least capture the spirit of his music.
How was the recording done?
Recording with Fernando is different; he
has a different vision, in fact, he isn’t a normal
producer, he’s a film producer and he has a really
broad vision. And the first thing he told me was that he’d
love to record live at the studio without cuts, without
any type of editing. I had to go with the songs really well
prepared… and the truth is that I had a really good
time. Recording live gives you the confidence that later
on when you play it live, it’s another world. With
the musicians you play with, like Dafnis Prieto on drums
or John Benítez on contrabass or the star collaborating
on the album, who is Phil Woods, well, the record has to
sound good. We’d never gotten together to play before.
It was the first time and it turned out like this: hi there,
this is the song, very well, sit down and here we go.
Was that at the Village Vanguard
in New York? What was that second experience there like?
It was different. This time I was a lot
more accompanied, with friends, a lot of people who really
love me came, my producer, my manager, my company…
and even a cousin of mine from Majorca. And he told me “I
can’t believe we two gypsies are in the Village”,
hee hee hee. The experience was really nice because this
time it was with more strength. The other time it was a
different commitment; I was playing jazz, it was Bill Evans’
music and I was very respectful, I had to be very careful.
This time I was totally free with my music and the audience’s
response was amazing; people were jumping up and down. It
was really, really special.
Part of the recording was done
in New York, wasn’t it?
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Niño Josele (Photo
Daniel Muñoz) |
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Yes, the instruments were recorded there
and part of the mixes was also done there. We’re looking
for an international sound, since the music is more open.
For the brass section to sound more real and for the guitar’s
sound to be as natural as possible. We’ve managed
to do so; I’m really happy with the album’s
mix, it sounds really really good. It’s unlikely for
a musician to be happy with an album’s sound and in
this case I’m really happy.
I’ve heard you say that when
Trueba sent you tracks from New York you were even surprised
by what you heard…
I remember once that Fernando, who was
in America with a different project, had taken the songs
with him to see what the musicians were doing. When he came
back to Spain, he played a song for me and I got scared.
What’s this? “What you played; your music”,
he answered. It’s been really hard for me to understand
it because it’s a new concept. Each is playing what
he plays and he’s been free to play; they haven’t
adapted in order to play with me. For the first time things
are free and it sounds the way it is. That really shocked
me and when I understood it I told Fernando that I thought
it was incredible. Each day he passed a song on to me, a
different way of seeing music opened up to me. The first
time you listen to the album it’s going to be a little
hard, because it’s new and it needs time and you listen
to understand it. Like, for example, the song Phil Woods
plays. He wasn’t going to play it, but he heard it
and he told Fernando that he wanted to play the whole thing
and in unison with me, that he didn’t want to change
anything, that the melody was perfect, untouchable. I flipped
out.
Tell us about those musicians…
Dafnis is one of the great drummers there
are right now and the mightiest of the young ones; he has
a really great road ahead of him. To me, John Benítez
is one of the world’s great contrabass players. Moreover,
he was really recommended by maestro Bebo Valdés.
He told me, “take John Benítez, who’s
a whiz”. In the collaborations on winds there are
legendary maestros such as Ralph Bowen on soprano sax. He’s
one of the best and a charming person. The record is a project
to have fun; it wasn’t let’s get serious, but
rather let’s enjoy making music. It’s reflected
a lot in one song, the bulería ‘A contratiempo’,
in which the percussionist, Pedrito, plays the conga and
the batá. That instrument isn’t usually stuck
in much in flamenco and if it is stuck in, the one doing
so has to know how to bring out its sound and has to know
where it comes from. And he’s a maestro at that; he
doesn’t play anything else and that’s really
important in each musician. They always contribute something
really special to you. I’m very happy because it’s
the first album on which I’ve taken part in practically
everything. I’ve rubbed shoulders with Fernando talking
about the musicians we were going to stick in, consulting
with me about what I think, what I see in each musician,
which musician I see in each song, what arrangement I see…
I’ve been very at ease. I also chose the cover; I
saw the paintings and, in fact, Manny Farber is now a part
of me; he’s the one who does the covers for me, a
maestro, a great painter. I’ve been counted on for
everything. This is my first album; I’m sure of it.
There’s a great change here as a guitarist and as
a musician. Then as a person, I’m learning little
by little. This is my best album in my musical career, as
something important towards the future, it gives me a very
broad vision to do great things with music. I think the
music is going change greatly or, at least, I see it differently.
I’m in favor of it and I love guitar with cante…
But there are no vocals at all
here…
… nor any clapping, nor a single
olé.
It must have been hard work for
you, wasn’t it?
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“It
isn’t the most flamenco album in history, but
I do think it’s a step forward in flamenco music”
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That’s what I said to Fernando; why
don’t we call up someone who at least says ‘olé’?
However, I recently recorded a song with Andrés Calamaro
for his new album and I had my fill. I stuck in a really
powerful guitar collaboration, one of the best ones I’ve
done so far, with staccatos, sheer madness… and in
the end, as I had that thorn in my side, I asked Andrés
to let me stick in at least a couple of olés…
and some clapping. Neither any lyrics nor a single olé
nor anything, is a new concept for flamenco guitar. Of course,
it isn’t the most flamenco album in history, but I
do think it’s a step forward in flamenco music.
The truth is that the limits aren’t
defined between the different musical genres which are involved…
No, and I think the young people who come
out now will be the future and they’re going to understand
that music perfectly. When they’re twenty years old,
we’ll already be old, I suppose. That’s why
I want to rile things up now.
And just as you go towards jazz,
you also go towards latin.
I learned the latin stuff with them. In
the era of the film ‘Calle 54’ by Fernando Trueba
was when Jerry came to Spain and there was a really big
change for latin jazz here. I wasn’t aware that I
was contributing to that movement. I was enjoying myself
and learning so much that I didn’t realize it. And
it was also a great change for flamenco. With Piraña,
Alain Pérez, Jerry and Cigala
we did a new thing, a fusion of really open music. I learned
what the clef is, well, I’m still learning it because
latin music is a world apart. It isn’t a type of music
to learn in two or three days or even in a couple of years;
it’s hard to understand. In the rumba we flamencos
don’t use clefs; our clef is the compás which,
for the Cubans, is the other way around; to them it’s
as if we were backwards. You have to understand it really
well. And for example, I think the rumba on the album is
really well backed up because I had the help of Alain Pérez,
who helped me to understand it and to make a really clear,
really latin structure. And it’s in the perfect clef.
You don’t drive them crazy
any more…
But I drive flamencos crazy because there
are a lot of people who don’t know where the notes
are struck or they don’t understand them. In reality,
it’s the most normal thing in the world: it goes to
the beat.
How do you explain that cross between
bulería and tumbao?
I’ve always wanted to change the
concept of the bulería. It’s hard to play bulerías
but when you have to, you don’t value it. I’m
crazy about turning the bulería around; I feel like
changing the rhythm, I feel like changing that structure
of falseta, falseta and falseta. Nobody understands that
yet in Spain, less so abroad and the musicians who understand
it are flamencos. And you have to let people take part in
a bulería and understand it, and to do so you have
to make a structure, build a song that’s coherent,
that has its refrain, that has its meaning, that’s
all connected. I had that stuck in my head and when I start
doing the rhythm at the beginning, that which they say is
the air, I wanted to stick in a tumbao to change the concept
of the rhythm a little bit. Thus the tumbao por bulerías;
what’s practically done is to substitute the rhythm
of the strumming. The passes are flamenco, but the song
is like a jigsaw puzzle… it’s the same thing
or the other way around or backwards. It has the same elements,
but positioned in different places. When you reach the tumbao,
you can go perfectly to four time; that’s why you
reach a time when you don’t know if it’s a bulería
or it’s a rumba.
The bulería is a world apart. The
three and four time part came from the roots of all this
business which we made up when Jerry came here and when
we played in the jam sessions, we’d always end up
going over to the other side. But imagine that with all
the time I’ve been playing latin here, I’ve
always had a great deal of respect for that music and for
joining a jam session. Jerry used to tell me to come up
on stage and I’d always refuse, although off stage
I did use to do stuff with them at a gathering or at a party.
When we used to do ‘Los piratas del flamenco’
we got up on stage and played without rehearsing. Who’s
going to rehearse with Jerry? You can’t rehearse with
anybody there; you learn what improvising upon the structure
is and playing as you go along. Unintentionally, you’re
in control, but without realizing that you’re in control.
I’m in favor of all of us who are playing on stage
being in control, not just me. Always making room for one
another; that’s how the magic arises. And for the
first time in the concert at the Village with Horacio el
Negro, playing with him in the bulería ‘A contratiempo’
I’m improvising on latin and then I noticed that I
wasn’t a flamenco who’s trying to play latin,
I was really aware of what I was doing; I’d become
one of them. I noticed it and even El Negro noticed it.
And I want to keep on feeling that tingling sensation.
And that turning around of the
bulería is also in the second song, which is precisely
called ‘¿Es esto una bulería?’
(‘Is this a bulería?’)…
When I was composing the song I said it
was a bulería, but when I finished recording it and
I listened to it finished with the winds and everything,
I asked Fernando several times if that was a bulería.
Then at home, the question just came straight out of my
father, who plays the guitar: “Hey, is this a bulería?
And it just sticks. That’s what flamencos say. And
I also wanted to name the songs differently to what’s
usual in flamenco: little white squares, narrow streets...
I wanted to change it all a little bit. The concept in flamenco
has to be changed a little. I like to party it up, but flamenco
is crying out for a change. But not a change in fusions
of the kind where I stick in a drummer or I stick in a…
And which musicians are going to play? The same ones or
ones who have no idea? The concept is that if you are really
sure of what tangos are, then open up to musicians, not
to the usual people who are already used to playing with
one another, but rather people who have a very different
vision. You’re going to move forward with them and
you’re going to learn a lot. That gives the music
freshness. If you always have the same musicians, everything
sounds the same in the end. You have to have humility, the
desire to learn... and be clear and coherent with yourself.
I’d love to make a classical music album in the future
with an orchestra, something powerful or special with my
music. But if I don’t know how to do orchestra arrangements,
I have to call up an arranger to do it. And if I don’t
feel ready to play with an orchestra, I don’t play.
I learn what I need, what it is, I ask for advice…
Of course it’s very easy to always do the same old
thing.
In the minute we have left, tell
us about ‘Venta del alma’.
It was something special I felt like doing.
I had a few unreleased scores, I talked to my company because
I was euphoric after making an album like ‘Española’.
And they told me there was no problem, that if I wanted,
it would bring out a limited edition. I had to release that
music; I couldn’t keep it tucked away.
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