Rafael de Utrera, cantaor. Interview

"Flamenco has to move with the times,
it can't look over its shoulder constantly"

Silvia Calado Olivo Seville, February 2004
Translation: Gary Cook

He's the one who's most surprised by his meteoric rise to fame. "I mean when I was eighteen I was still working as a waiter!" Just over a decade on, Rafael de Utrera is starting to carve out a career as a solo vocalist, backed up by his brilliant experience as an accompanying singer for leading names, including the pinnacle of flamenco achievement: a tour with Paco de Lucía. And he's still trying to digest that experience. The challenge confronting him is to shake off the label of old school cantaor, but he's in no rush - he knows that "cante flamenco is a career that requires lifelong dedication". He still sees himself as "an apprentice, fishing around, investigating," to fill his flamenco offerings with charisma and a broad vision, while never losing sight of the basic foundations. "Purity can be found in what each one of us feels." And he makes a promise: My début disc will be released before the year's out.

Rafael de Utrera (photo: Daniel Muñoz)

So when are we going to finally see this long-awaited album you're planning?

We had several offers for the album, but they all fell through. I think I chose the worst moment in recording history. I decided to wait a little longer because as time goes by and you work with more established people, you set yourself higher standards.

We're getting ready to start recording right now, though we still don't have a definite contract. I'm working on one part with Gerardo Núñez, but we aren't necessarily going to do that just yet. We spoke to José Carlos Gómez, the guitarist from Algeciras who works with Niña Pastori and has played on songs for La Susi. He'll probably be my producer. Dorantes offered to play one or two numbers I asked him for. And I'm hoping to get as many big names together as I can. By next year I'm going to get an album on the market, no matter what it takes. If I have to produce it myself, well I'll just have to put up the money. These days you can't count on a label to put up the cash.

What style do you want to use on this disc?

I want the style to sound like my own style, the real Rafael de Utrera, a flamenco cantaor who's open to all kinds of music. I'm a flamenco-lover, but first and foremost I'm a music-lover. And I can come up with classical songs just as easily as I can come up with something more modern. There's a certain group of people for whom modern is seen as something negative. I don't agree - there are plenty of cantaores who do commercial songs and they come out well. I think you have to change with the times. You can't go back in time, we already have a legacy that the past masters left us. They laid the foundations, we have to always keep them in mind, but we have to make new contributions, flamenco contributions with character. That's the hard part - that's what sparks my admiration for artists. And that's something that's got lost along the way.

How do flamenco artists get along with one another?

We learn more to criticize than to see the good side of people. And I think you have to seek out what's positive, what's good about each person - there'll always be faults. I think the young artists out there should help each other along more; it's a shame that in an artform like flamenco everybody's mudslinging.

Rafael de Utrera (photo: Daniel Muñoz)

Why do you think that while, say, Enrique Morente continues to move forward, a lot of young artists stick firmly to classical styles?

Enrique Morente takes that risk because he's a legend; he can afford to do it because he's created his own style, he has charisma. He's one of the most charismatic cantaores. And, also, he has a firm grasp of the foundations of flamenco; he started out singing Antonio Chacón numbers. Later on, with this foundation firmly laid, he created his own style. I've no idea why young guys these days are digging up things from fifty years back because the people who did that stuff lived different lives. To me if you listen to that, learn it and try and do it the same you're faking it. It's a copy. You have to do it your way.

You have to take advantage of the fact that other avenues are open to you these days; things are more refined, more polished, and we have to apply our own style to the rich legacy we've been left, without ever losing sight of our roots. They didn't have such a rich legacy back then. But I love those artists. I listen to Manuel Vallejo a lot, to Tomás Pavón too, but I try and do things my way; I think it's a mistake to do things like they do. Some people think that's the way to find purity. But that's not purity; purity is in each of our hearts, in what each of us feels. And it isn't to be found only in the oldest material, you can find it in every era. Some cite Fernanda de Utrera... but she was really modern. When she used to do that Soleá de La Serneta, she did it in her own style, and she did Machín, Juanita Reina and Marifé de Triana songs 'por bulerías', which back in those days was her musical upbringing, not jazz or blues. Flamenco music draws many influences from all genres, and it's always positive to take those genres and bring them into your own music; what isn't positive is when people wander out and stray into the territory of other genres.

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