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Gerardo Núñez taught me a lot of things, and so did all the musicians that tour with him. And jazz is a world all on its own. Yesterday I was watching the Paco de Lucía DVD ('Francisco Sánchez-Paco de Lucía') - for me he's the greatest flamenco artist of all time, and I was thinking about his philosophy... And the range of things he's done is down to his incessant quest for more, he didn't just stick with Niño Ricardo. And you hear him talk to Al di Meola, to John McLaughlin... and he said we all have to do the same. That's flamenco, not light-hearted toe-tapping commercial stuff - the only real flamenco is the flamenco that has a message to offer, that has something to say.

	Rafael de Utrera (foto: Daniel Muñoz)

Has your way of singing changed after that experience?

It hasn't changed really, it just opened my mind to other methods. Even at my age, I'm still an apprentice, fishing around, looking at new things, investigating. And just seeing what comes up. There's no point just sticking to what you know. If we get settled we stagnate. Flamenco is on a high right now, everybody's more expressive, and thank god nowadays flamenco artists aren't obliged to sing to noblemen and women - that's thanks to a lot of people. People like Camarón and Paco de Lucía gave it universal appeal, and others like Antonio Mairena also worked hard to earn flamenco a little respect. The only way to grow in this genre is to learn from each other, help each other out. Each one of us has his own talents, his own approach, his own attitude. Bearing that in mind, each one should make his own contribution, so long as they do so with sincerity.

Some people have a distorted view of me. Since I often sang for dancers, or sang the odd piece for Paco de Lucía, Tomatito and Gerardo Núñez, they don't know I'm also capable of singing 'in the spotlight'. I drew up a live set, sticking to what I know and what I'm learning, and it's made up of more solemn styles: granaínas, soleá apolá, seguiriyas... And just because it features percussion and violin doesn't mean it's any less serious. That's something beautiful, that's what makes flamenco grow. Just take a look at Paco de Lucía, the greatest, who's so capable he can do whatever he turns his hand to. I think these days nobody's prepared to put up with a 90 minute guitar and vocal flamenco set. That's logical though, times have changed.

I think you've got to be forward thinking - that doesn't mean you have to go wild. But you have to change with the times, gradually, because it's all about taking it slowly in this game. Right now I'm searching for new ideas. I wish I could see twenty years into the future just to know what Rafael de Utrera came up with.

How do you feel about your work alongside Paco de Lucía

That was the biggest thing that ever happened to me. I never even dreamed of doing something like that. I learned amazing amounts from Paco, above all from his personality, from what a good person he is. He's even more special as a person than he is as a guitarist. I didn't expect him to be so different from the rest in that respect. If all the big names of cante flamenco already sang for him, what was I doing there? But it wasn't like that at all: he always paid attention to me, encouraged me. It made a big impact on me. I'm still trying to get over that experience, I never fully recovered. I want to get it out of my head, I don't even like to think about it. It was down to me at the end of the day, I reaped the benefits of it, and it makes me proud. It's the most amazing thing that's happened to me - words can't express how I felt.

And your experience performing at tablas before that would've given you a different outlook, right?

	"A lot of people told me I didn't deserve to be with Paco de Lucía"

I'm trying to climb down from that feeling of security it gave me right now. I was two years with my head in the clouds. Artistically, to be honest, I didn't move forward, I just felt overwhelmed by it all. And I'm not going to live my life in the shadow of that experience; I have to carve out my own career. A lot of people told me I didn't deserve to be with Paco, and even worse things than that, you know the kind of gossip these things generate. He had faith in me and to me that was all that mattered. Whatever anyone else has to say doesn't matter to me. I don't care about those comments. In flamenco people should pull together more, act more as one.

And do you see any change in the power and flexibility of your voice?

I sang in high registers because things were set up for cantaores like Duquende and Pepe de Lucía, there wasn't time to change. But the truth is it taught me a lot. When you sing above your natural register, your voice opens up more, my voice now is more kind of mature, more assured, it projects better. It's down to Paco de Lucía... and the passing of time, I mean your voice matures with age. I have to say that every time I sang with him, and with the seven geniuses that accompanied him, I was really nervous, trembling with fear. At the first show I shut myself in the bathroom in tears, saying to myself "That's it, I can't handle this." I was petrified, but it was a beautiful experience too. I wish all suffering was that beautiful. Sure, it's really hard to match their standards. I arrived in Washington the first time, we never rehearsed and it was the first time I set foot there... Imagine stepping up on stage and singing in that situation. That's too much.

Rafael de Utrera (photo: Javier Hurtado)

Your set habitually includes 'Nana del caballo grande', a piece we all associate with Camarón. How do you feel performing that number?

It was hard because everything Camarón did is unsurpassable. I sang that lullaby with an orchestra four or five years back at a Lorca centenary in Amsterdam. It was treading on dangerous ground. I thought I'd never be able to sing with a hundred musicians around me, but when I started I thought I was floating on air. I enjoyed the experience so much that I chose that lullaby out of the Lorca repertoire I sang, and adapted it to my own style. Since then I grew fonder of it by the day - I like performing it, it feels right. Well, I always feel a little reluctant, because when Camarón did the song so well... That's why I try to give it my own angle. People like it, it gets their attention.

You're also showing evidence on stage of your other passion: the bullfight.

In the old days, flamenco and bullfighting were more closely linked because flamenco was for the benefit of the wealthy landowners, and that always brought it into contact with the bullfight. These days they go their own ways. Flamenco is another form of entertainment. Since I was a kid I always loved bullfighting, even to the point of having slipped out at night to try my luck as a clandestine bullfighter. A great friend of mine, the bullfighter Curro Molina, introduced me to Finito de Córdoba, and he's got me mixed up in bullfighting again - I even go to train with him. One of my ambitions was to take flamenco and bullfighting to the stage together, even if the bullfighting was just for show. And I did just that with a soleá apolá, to lyrics by the poet Fernando Villalón, which I sang for Antonio Canales in his production 'Ojos verdes'. The truth is I loved the result. Another dream of mine is to perform live in the bullring, while a bullfight is actually under way. Camarón sometimes sang for Curro Romero, I know that in the bullring at Mont de Marsan Joselito de Lebrija and Fernando Terremoto Jr did something like that... And that's my dream. Artistically there's little connection. When I watch someone bullfight, it really reaches me. I love bullfighting. I even lost interest in football, and for someone who was born a Betis supporter that's unheard of.

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More information: Interview with Rafael de Utrera, cantaor (March 2001)