Serranito, guitarist. Interview

“The guitar has been the driving force
behind the enrichment of flamenco”

Silvia Calado. Madrid, September 2004

Before the guitar comes a smile. Serranito is a person with an infectious vitality about him. Together with Paco de Lucía and Manolo Sanlúcar, he was part of a triad of artists who turned flamenco guitar on its head more than thirty years ago now. The guitarist from Madrid backs the renovation of flamenco without leaning on other genres, although he has no qualms about encounters with other musical styles - so long as its made clear that the intended result is fusion. And the result is just that when his flamenco guitar meets Cuban chamber orchestra Camerata Romeu in ‘Sueños de ida y vuelta’, a concierto which he'll be taking on tour after its première at the 2004 Festival Bienal de Sevilla. One more project, one more joy in a career that's spanned half a century. Right now he eyes the coming generation expectantly. He knows they're magnificent guitarists, “but let's wait and see what they can offer.” The maestro advises them to develop a style of their own. As for those just starting out, he's a little more specific: to develop a detailed knowledge of flamenco before they try to be great solo performers, and to respect their elders. “The first time Sabicas came back to Spain, it was to attend the Flamenco Studies Week in Malaga - maybe I was 24 at the time. I went to the airport to meet him at seven in the morning, to carry his guitar for him.”

How did ‘Sueños de ida y vuelta’ come about?

The album was the brainchild of Fundación Autor. We'd been talking about doing something - I suggested a look back over my career, but they proposed doing something both Cuban and Spanish. It seemed like a nice idea but the problem was finding someone to work with. When they mentioned the name Camerata Romeu, off the top of their heads... because they're all beautiful, and because they play really well (he laughs). It's a chamber orchestra and Zenaida Romeu, the director and founder member, comes from a family with a musical history stretching back over many generations.

And the result was a meeting of flamenco with two types of music: classical and Caribbean...

Exactly. When we think of Cuba, we think of Cuban rhythms, but with an orchestra of this quality and my approach to music and to flamenco, we started to choose another type of songs... beautiful songs. They're old songs that I've given the flamenco treatment, building up with long introductions so they have room to do their thing. Later, though, when the cantaor sings a guajira, he does it with that flamenco bitterness, the hallmark of true flamenco, but it's a Cuban song set within a framework of 'palmas' and what we understand by Caribbean music. We take my flamenco music and cubanize it!

And taking that to the stage?

It's altogether different, much more wide open. We do plenty of material that isn't on the album. We open with one of Camerata Romeu's songs. The bailaora, Charo Espino, emerges from behind a smokescreen... as if it were a dream, dancing as if it were some kind of fantasy. When she's done, the bailaor Ángel Muñoz appears, dominating the stage so that she retreats. Then he freezes and holds still until I enter, and play a gentle melody that starts to breathe life into him, building it up into a 'zapateado'. So the audience knows right from the start that this is a meeting of Cuba and Spain, with this fusion... this love affair between one type of music and the other, between one culture and the other. The script breaks down from that moment on - the orchestra plays, we play together, I play flamenco passages... I think it's a packed show, varied, and one that will appeal to most. Nobody is gonna go home disappointed because there's something for everyone.

What relationship have you found between flamenco and Cuban music?

The way of feeling music and the rhythmical capacity of both musical styles. I wouldn't say this is flamenco, personally it bothers me when the word flamenco is used to make the boundaries of flamenco fuzzier - or any other type of music for that matter. Jazz-flamenco fusion... you aren't playing jazz and you aren't playing flamenco either. I've done it, but I wouldn't dream of saying I play 'flamenco jazz'. Today, as far as I know, there's no such thing as 'flamenco jazz'. There are studies, there are bits and pieces, and maybe one day it'll be something important, but for the time being it isn't. Flamenco is flamenco, and every experience you can take on board from learning about other types of music can only serve to enrich your playing. I still haven't seen a jazz artist play flamenco. Does it come close? Well, yeah, it does. 'Nuevo flamenco' or whatever they call it... The truth is I don't listen to too much of it, but there's always been music with a flamenco twist, and amazing groups like Triana and La Barbería del Sur. And when Ketama came out, that was practically the same: that really was Cuban music given the flamenco treatment! (he laughs). The flamenco sound is all in the harmonies and roots of the music. That's why, in this case, I never say it's flamenco, I say it's... fusion. When I play a soleá, that's when I'm playing flamenco.

The orthodox schools of flamenco, though, snub their noses at music from the Americas...

As far as hardcore flamenco artists are concerned it isn't really flamenco, but wow! A vidalita transports you straight to Argentina, it's an Argentinean milonga, but with Spanish roots. In this case, when we were fishing around for an album title, 'Ida y vuelta' came up (referring to the 'round trip' of Spanish musical influences that infiltrated Cuban styles long ago and now return in their evolved state). But the term's been overused, and I had the idea of adding the magic word ‘sueños’ to give it a taste of nostalgia, for those who went there, those who came here, the roots we implanted there and those who returned home when the Americans threw us out... Well, we didn't really stand much chance, did we? (He laughs).

Do you think that for flamenco music to evolve it has to draw on other musical styles, or can the impetus come from within?

	"And there's no doubt that the guitar has been the driving force behind the enrichment of flamenco"

From within, of course. You listen to Falla and flamenco was already being regenerated, you can't get more flamenco than that. And it was all based on chords. For example, in ‘Farruca del Molinero’ you hear an E natural and the normal six string chord on the guitar; and when the F sounds you can still hear the B and the E natural... That's striking as far as harmony is concerned, but that was what a guitarist did eighty years ago because he didn't make a capo by holding his finger across the neck of the guitar, he just slid his hand down holding the same position. Still, it's a sensational harmonic discovery. That doesn't mean you don't come across things in other musical styles that can work well in a flamenco piece. Chick Corea is a jazz giant, when he wants to make Spanish music he plays series of harmonies that can teach us a thing or two. If you bring that over into flamenco territory, and you remember to never let go of your own style, you enrich your playing. And there's no doubt that the guitar has been the driving force behind the enrichment of flamenco.

Tomatito told us not long ago that you can enrich your playing with other musical styles, but what's really difficult is to keep it sounding flamenco...

That's the way it is, he hit the nail on the head. You take any old piece of music, give it the flamenco treatment, find someone to accompany you and it sounds all right. Now take a soleá, a seguiriya or a taranta, but ones that really ooze soleá, seguiriya or taranta, and that are new tunes... That's the way forward for flamenco guitarists. Since the days of Ramón Montoya and Luis Yance, then Sabicas, Niño Ricardo, Manolo de Huelva - they all came up with new stuff... stepping forward. Then there's our generation: Paco de Lucía, Manolo Sanlúcar and me, we're opening it up and improving things - well no really, I mean it's difficult to improve on the way our predecessors had of feeling, their approach to flamenco and their talent. But if I play you a soleá of mine from thirty years ago, it sounds different already. Sabicas said, about Paco and me: “These kids play the same stuff as I do, but twice.” (He laughs). And that happens because life changes, because your social life leads you to discover new paths.

And do you see that eagerness in the new generation of guitarists?

There's an amazing generation of young guitarists out there - well, not so young anymore, they're all in their forties. As for us we're in our sixties, we're twenty years older than they are, but we're the ones that got them where they are... I had all of them here with me at one time or another learning bits and pieces. Besides, I'm a big admirer of the youngsters out there, and I think they'll go far. And then you've got an even younger generation. Go to any festival and you'll see that.

But we set a standard, I feel safe to say, the Paco-Manolo-Serranito trio: each one of us created a style different from the others. And that shows that flamenco can still be true to itself even if it is different. Paco and I have nothing in common when we play; and Manolo is different again. We created three schools. And nowadays the only thing I see - bearing in mind there's a stunning level of ability - is that there's a certain resemblance between one guitarist and the next.

Another thing I see these days is that there's less respect toward us than we had for our elders. Perhaps life's just changed that way. The first time Sabicas came to Spain, it was to attend the Flamenco Studies Week in Malaga - maybe I was 24 at the time. I went to the airport to meet him at seven in the morning, to carry his guitar for him or whatever he wanted. And that respect was characteristic of our generation. Just look at the respect Paco always showed for Sabicas and Niño Ricardo... I don't feel that respect is shown me, except by a few dedicated students.

And yeah, like I said, this is a magnificent generation of creative artists. José Antonio Rodríguez plays like magic, Vicente Amigo, Manolo Franco, Gerardo Núñez is out of this world... Let's see what they can come up with.

Are we still yet to see that?

Of course, you have to look at their contribution in the long term. And see that they were able, without straying too far, to offer something new. As for the style each one of us builds up and the difficulties we guitarists have... Paco ventured a little into the world of jazz, Manolo has a mystical air about him, and I opted more for classical music. My style comes, too, from never having had a mentor for any length of time, from having a different kind of music in my head. Each one went his own way and it's all flamenco. Listen to a soleá of mine and it's flamenco; one of Paco's, and it's flamenco; and Manolo's, they sound so sweet... Everybody learned something from us. And I learned from everyone.

Do you think Paco de Lucía overshadowed other guitarists of his same generation?

	"Paco didn't drive us down, just the opposite. His style of playing and his opening up flamenco to a wider audience benefited us all"

He didn't really overshadow us; it's like in the days of Mozart and Salieri. It happened to me. I was always a great admirer of Paco’s. I started giving concerts earlier because I'm older than he is. That's no advantage, four and a half years older... although he says it's five, but it's a lie (he laughs). The other day we were having dinner together in Cordoba after his concert - amazing, by the way - and he was joking around saying how I was ancient. Those jokes are something that kept us together since we were kids. His father let him hang around with me because, I don't know, he saw me as a responsible kid. Antonio was a good friend of mine, in spite of the age gap. Right up until I did the ‘Misa Flamenca’ and they called me and not Paco, it was his brother Ramón de Algeciras who played with me. I'm not kidding, he wouldn't let him go out with other kids. What happened to Paco is that he spent nine hours with the guitar and his father there with him, he made him study all the time.

His father wasn't a great guitarist, but he was a good teacher. He knew a whole lot about flamenco, he made a living out of it. We have a mutual respect for each other, and there's a strong bond between us. Paco hasn't really been luckier than I have, it's just that he had the chance to show what he's capable of and maybe I didn't. If I'd had that chance, maybe I'd have got just as far. And Paco didn't drive us down, just the opposite. His style of playing and his opening up flamenco to a wider audience benefited us all... I mean if I've been around the world three times, he's been around it six. We're truly ambassadors of flamenco, and Paco had a headier career than us. Manolo doesn't like to travel, but I love it personally. Tomorrow I'm off to Havana to rehearse with my girls from Camerata Romeu. I don't teach because I don't enjoy it. My thing is flamenco in action, on stage. I was the first of my generation to get up on a stage and play accompaniment for singers and dancers; and later at guitar concerts...

next >>