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And what would you say about the musicians who play with you on the album?

There's Paquete, he's a good musician and a beautiful person, and I think he has so many positive aspects, I trust him. If I'm in the sound booth and I ask him how the guitar sounds, and if he tells me the third string's a little out of tune, I just have to believe him. He's got a really good ear, and he's a good friend and an admirer. And besides that, he trained in the same circles I did, and that's more comfortable for me. And as a musician, we all know that he does those modern touches of his beautifully.

Tomatito and Paquete (Photo: Daniel Muñoz)

Antonio Serrano is one of the country's finest jazz musicians. And you'd never believe the sound he can get out of that harmonica, it looks like some dog's chewed-up bone. Those scales, those sets of chords, that beautiful improvisation, straight from the heart, no showing off. He plays beautiful scales, not too wild, just sweet - it's hard to do that. He's one of my favorite jazz musicians.

But your regular band members aren't here. Were you trying to look for a new sound?

I didn't really pay attention to that. Bernardo Parrilla always recorded stuff. But a lot of times you write things that call to mind other instruments. And instead of the violin, this time I thought of a harmonica. I listened to Serrano a lot, and he's someone who adapts well to flamenco, and fits in with any musician. And it's a unique sound, nobody believes the harmonica can give that serious a tone to the music. To me it's something worthy of respect. You close your eyes and say, who's playing that? It's unique. And I wanted to call on friends like Antonio Carmona who used to play percussion with me way back, when I started out playing guitar, and who's recorded tons of albums with me. After Ketama - they had their golden era and it went really well - now he works with other people again. He said to me, "Are you recording? Save a bulería for me." In the end he recorded a couple of numbers for me, and I think he adds a marvelous touch when he plays. He was one of the pioneers and one of the smartest guys around playing percussion.

Oh, and when we were talking before about cantaores, we left out Diego el Cigala...

Cigala has one of the most beautiful voices there is on the cante scene, a true gypsy sound, he's a true 'camaronero'. I played on his albums and he played on projects of mine such as 'Guitarra Gitana'. And I thought it'd be a good idea if, after performing all these boleros, he could start to warm up for the new flamenco album he's planning to record, by playing on my disc. That way he can start to get in shape, start to build up an appetite for what's to come.

	"Paco and Camarón revolutionized guitar and cante, if we try to forget the schools they created, we wouldn't be doing them justice"

Is the adjective ‘camaronero’ a compliment for you? Paco de Lucía said that young cantaores should look beyond trying to emulate Camarón...

To me it's a compliment. I mean it's just like if we forgot about Paco. Where would we start? I mean we were born with those guys. Paco and Camarón revolutionized guitar and cante, if we try to forget the schools they created, we wouldn't be doing them justice. We can't take that away from them. He had such ambition, and set such a high standard, it's difficult to imagine how you could better that. And I say if you can't beat them, join them. This is how I see it. Most young and not so young guitarists are crazy - they subconsciously want to compete with Paco de Lucía. They might say he's the best, but they really want to better him. What I did is when I met Paco de Lucía at the age of fifteen, I surrendered as soon as I saw what he could do. That's why I seek out my own way, that's why my conscience is clear, that's why people like me, that's why I do what I do, that's why I have my own personality, and know my limits. And young guys still say "Tomate, you play some mean flamenco." At least they value your music, you've carved out a niche for yourself.

And competition shouldn't enter into music. You have to compete with yourself and you have to bring your fantasies, your dreams to life, everyone has something. That's why one guy's paranoid, another one's stuck at home... but look, we're all only human! You aren't Mozart, nor is anybody else, so quit trying to be so mystic - that's all phony. I mean if there isn't a flower in my dressing room I won't play, and if my chair isn't this color... Get real - go play your guitar, think about your guitar and quit goofing around! You need a shrink, man, you're not gonna last in this game. You're gonna get sick and in the end you won't even want to work, and the record companies are gonna lose their patience with you - audiences too - and they're gonna end up hating you. Nobody's indispensable in this world. Camarón died and the world keeps turning. And he was the genius of my generation. We won't see a greater genius in our lifetimes. He re-vamped flamenco, invented 'flamenco joven', the crowds, that identification with the youth, the intellectuals back then... He came to Madrid and packed fourteen thousand people into the Palacio de los Deportes stadium. Who else has done that? Nobody. Maybe back then Serrat could pull it off, but a flamenco artist with a guitar and a suit? He was the only one doing that stuff. His power to draw a crowd and the way he could connect with the masses, that charisma, there was no effort, it was just natural. Any big international musician that came, they all came after him: Chick Corea, Mick Jagger... he came and he was knocked sideways by Camarón. And what do the Stones know about flamenco? And you go all over the world and you see his records. He's the reference point for flamenco today.

Photo: Daniel Muñoz

And even more so for cantaores, if that's possible, right?

When we talk about Cigala and Duquende and Montse and my daughter and anybody out there... their biggest influence is Camarón. Of course, they have to build a confident voice, and be sure of themselves on stage, but it's hard to break away from Camarón's influence. If anyone managed to break the mould, another star would be born. And it's trickier with vocals. With the guitar it's a lot easier. Paco made it so easy - thanks to him the doors are wide open for three or four of us to do what we want. And at least people appreciate our music, our concerts sell out and young people are still drawn to this scene. To get your name known outside of Spain is harder for vocalists, because guitarists speak a universal language that needs no translation - anyone can understand it. I go to Japan and they understand the melodies I play, I go to Germany and the same thing happens, each one understands it in their own way.

Do you think guitarists are seeking out new directions?

	"To be able to play jazz is not the same as really knowing how to play jazz. You might be quick-minded and you might be agile and have fun with this kind of music, but you can't learn it in three days, it takes a lifetime of experience"

Yeah. Right or wrong, at least people are trying out other ways of doing things. There are so many musical genres and one guy maybe plays a 'bossa nova' chord, and another plays... everyone's got their own thing. The problem here is that it has to sound flamenco. Know what I mean? I don't know, but you've got to keep the flamenco beat. And if Michel Camilo wants to do a project with me I'm not gonna pretend I play jazz, although I could maybe kind of imitate a jazz guitarist. If this guy thought I wasn't flamenco, what would he want me for? That's my trump card. And that's what guitarists from other places like. That's the secret. Flamenco is so strong and so easily exportable, that the flamenco sound should never be lost. The audience is happy when you play flamenco. When you strum a chord, pluck the strings... Like at the concert Paco gave not long ago in Galapagar, near Madrid. People go with the idea already in their head, you don't have to juggle with other musical styles because it isn't your territory and you're going to mess up. Your musical culture is cast in stone from an early age - I'm never going to learn to play another style. I played flamenco for the last thirty years and I still don't know how. And the same's true of jazz guitarists, they spend their whole life playing and they're always searching for more, pushing further and further. To be able to play jazz is not the same as really knowing how to play jazz. You might be quick-minded and you might be agile and have fun with this kind of music, but you can't learn it in three days, it takes a lifetime of experience.

How did you react to the 'reunion' with Camarón on Paco de Lucía's latest disc?

When we were playing the falsetas over the tape we had tears in our eyes. It was like he was alive, really. We said, "We're back together again, the three of us".

And speaking of Paco's album...

Cositas buenas - yes sir, good things! (he laughs)

Do his albums still move you?

He's still my idol. You can't do more than what he's done for the guitar. He's set the standard sky high... you just can't play better than that. I play the guitar well, and I know that. But there's Paco de Lucía, and then there's the rest of us. And anyone who doesn't know it, go see a doctor. You have to accept that if you want to live in peace... and so you don't just throw in the towel. You have to fight for your instrument, to play better and better, to make music and for people to enjoy the music. And above all for you to enjoy it yourself. Martyrdom's not for me. You just have to accept it.

You have a particular concern about getting through to audiences, don't you?

My experience is that if you have fun, if you're calm and relaxed, the audience has fun too. If they promote your concert and people have come out to see you, give them all you can. They come with an idea of what they're going to hear, and if you're aware of that you oblige by giving them all you have, whether it's a lot, a little or whatever. And they'll have a great time. At the 2004 Festival Flamenco Pa'tos at the Colegio de Médicos in Madrid I had a wild time, and that's why - because I play my stuff and I get applause. Well I just have to play better for them! And my group has a great time too because there's no pressure of any kind, there's no leader. I give the instructions because I'm the one who has to lead the way, but I can't pressurize a musician, they have to enjoy the music. There are more important things in life than suffering on stage for no reason.

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